Comments on: Counselor Vs. Support Group

By: spiro

spiro — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:00:48 +0000

oh and ben, i’d love to talk to you about it, whenever that is

By: spiro

spiro — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:43:00 +0000

conwict: actually, the local and state gov do not require anyone to attend 12-step groups. it is that these are what often fit into this category. I sign off people’s court-ordered papers for free peer support groups at my mental health counseling internship. These are not 12 step groups, and we do not recite the serenity prayer, etc.

By: stephanie

stephanie — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:50:17 +0000

Aww thanks!
When I hear people talking like he did I think they’re speaking to their pain. It could be destructive but I didn’t see it that way, so I don’t know.
(I heart Kami.)

By: Kami

Kami — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:04:53 +0000

And, I heart Stephanie!

By: Kami

Kami — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:24:15 +0000

I hope you’re right.

By: stephanie

stephanie — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:30:57 +0000

I’m not so sure, really. I think he’s just expressing himself and it’s not necessarily destructive, in this instance anyway. I think he’s giving us a gift, an opportunity to engage him.

By: Kami

Kami — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:13:56 +0000

I’m sure he does. I’m fine with people feeling bitter. I’ve been bitter. But when your bitterness starts to spread to yourself and other people like poison that’s when it becomes destructive.

By: stephanie

stephanie — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 17:05:43 +0000

He probably has a good reason for being bitter. It’s okay to be bitter.

By: Kami

Kami — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:23:27 +0000

Conwict, you don’t just sound peeved, you sound bitter.

By: conwict

conwict — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:17:33 +0000

Do yourself a favor and stay the heck away from 12-step groups.

You wrote:

“I think that your statement about “everyone’s different” is less true than I once thought. I used to get caught up in the symptoms (alcohol, drugs, sex, co-dependency, food, shopping, etc) but I think that I am starting to realize that there is a very identical underlying theme to it all.”

This is clearly based on the conflated, unscientific 12-step programs that claim to be a cure to all of these ills.

12-step works by admitting you’re “powerless,” turning your will over to a “higher power” (which magically, toward the end of the steps, turns out to be a “God” that you “pray to” to remove all of your “defects of character”), confessing everything you’ve done wrong, making amends, and so on.

Can’t we do better than that? Does anyone here other than Ben honestly think that praying to a “higher power” (later called God in the same set of steps) and engaging in confession is productive for EVERYONE who happens to have a problem using excessive amounts of alcohol or drugs, or for that matter shopping, etc?

Further, twelve-step SPECIFICALLY ignores scientific studies, etc, as it “has no opinion on outside issues.” IT DOESN’T CHANGE WITH SCIENCE, or for that matter much at all from the original, hardcore Christian Bill Wilson’s AA.

So if your definition of the “human condition” specifies that humans all need to pray and confess their sins and admit they’re powerless, sure, 12-step works great.

Here are some excellent resources for people who want to investigate 12-step critically and look beyond:

http://www.rational.org
http://www.morerevealed.com
Jack Trimpey, The Small Book

I may sound militant or overly peeved, but I am disgusted at the violations of the Constitution in the US that take place in the name of AA/NA (people are sent to them by local and state gov.; they ARE religious programs), the self-perpetuating cycle of “powerlessness” in 12-step, and–most of all–the conditioning during times of extreme distress (namely the point at which one becomes clean or sober, which is bound to be physiologically and psychologically stressful) that one must attend 12-step or one will relapse and die.